The Virtual Reality Doctor | Always Lifting Ep. 6

Karen sits down with Dr. Kryn McClain—licensed professional counselor, trauma therapist and founder of Paragon Behavioral Health and Catapollo VR—to explore how mental health, leadership and immersive virtual reality can work together to lift people higher. Kryn shares her journey building a people-first therapy practice to creating VR training modules that improve real-world outcomes. She also shares practical insights on regulating yourself as a
leader, building healthy culture and expanding access to care.

👉 Don’t forget to subscribe to Always Lifting
👉 Learn more about Paragon Behavioral Health Services https://www.paragonbhs.com/
👉 Learn more about Catapollo VR https://catapallovr.com/
👉 Learn more about the Adelyn Rose Foundation https://adalynrose.org/
  / kryn-mcclain  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Today's guest is someone I know well and just think is super cool. Dr. Krim McLean is not only a licensed professional counselor and trauma therapist, but also the founder of both Paragon Behavioral Health and Catapolo VR. Crin blends heart innovation and leadership to reimagine what therapy and education can look like. She uses immersive virtual reality to expand access, build real-world skills, and lift lives. She's smart, bold, and always lifting people higher. Welcome, Dr. Krin McLean.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I'm thrilled that you are here today. Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

So what do you think of the podcast space?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

You've heard about it, now you're here. This is just so cool. It just radiates Karen and everything I know you stand for. So the podcast room is just fantastic. Excellent.

unknown 1:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Well, I'm so glad to hear you're here. And I have some questions for you. And we know each other fairly well, but I I actually don't think I know the backstory behind you becoming a doctor. And I would love for you to share with me a little bit, like how how did how did you end up there on your path?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah, so I was working at a uh company where I felt like I was kind of out of my depths. So when we go to school to become therapists, we don't learn how to become leaders. We learn how to become therapists. But ultimately, when you once you become a really good therapist, you naturally you tend to gravitate towards a leadership position. Interesting. So I was hired for a leadership uh position and I felt as if I just didn't know what I was doing. So I decided I wanted to go back to earn my doctorate in healthcare administration because I didn't really want to go the psychologist route, because I I what I was looking for was really that leadership skill and to really understand better the ins and outs of administrative responsibilities. So I felt I had the clinical piece under my hat, but really wanted to further my education to just really better uh be a better leader for my people.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Rewinding, so that makes a lot of sense. And actually knowing you and the business you've created and the entrepreneurial spirit you have, I think that's such a great setup for you to be able to do what it is you've done. Was there anything inspiring you as a child to want to to become um the therapy route, to be able to do that piece of it?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Sure. So uh my mom was a therapist for over 40 years. Uh actually worked for us for quite a while before she retired for maybe the third time. Uh so you know, growing up, just really seeing, you know, my mom helping people, and that just really got ingrained at an early age. So I think, you know, once I, you know, graduated undergrad and was struggling, you know, 2006, due to the great, what was it, recession or whatever where I was going after the time. Yeah, I think every so many years. So many years as a millennial. So um decided to go back to school because my undergrad just wasn't going to cut it. Uh so decided to follow in those footsteps and was fortunate enough that I earned a scholarship and a free ride to go to St. Bonaventure University. So I was able to earn my master's degree without furthering debt. So I found a nice pathway through that. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Now we fast forward back, you know, I wouldn't say all the way into the future to today, but Paragon. So you you um again, entrepreneurial um creating a a business, you know, now you have two businesses. Tell me a little bit about what Paragon is and your journey to starting that business.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, absolutely. So I I when I went for my doctor, I didn't intend to start a business. I had intended to stay with the company I was at so that I could help that company. Um, you know, so my wife and I decided it was time to start our family and went through the whole infertility process, and that was quite the journey. I went through a miscarriage and you know, five or six attempts to finally get pregnant with my son Anderson, who's now eight.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Fortunately, we share that experience. I also went through IVF, had the miscarriages, and yeah. Yeah, so it's rough quite a thing. Yeah, so you understand.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

So it's it's not only emotionally draining, it's physically draining. So, you know, we're all excited, we finally have our baby. You know, I take my maternity leave, I come back to work, and I essentially get a pink slit that my position has been eliminated. Ugh. And I was just so blown by that because I had always received, you know, great marks. I was building the program, I was clinical, I was revenue producing. It just didn't make any sense. And, you know, quite honestly, I was I was enraged, you know, that that this was okay and this was acceptable, and this is just business. So I decided, well, how do businesses start and why can't I just do it then? And so I, you know, rallied a partner, and that's exactly what we did. And we started out thinking we were just gonna be in private practice and we grew it to 80 people. So that's kind of where we're at today.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And you ch you channeled some anger from a moment and uh processed it and turned it into something awesome, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, nothing like a little female warrior rage to start a business and get it going and channel your inner Viking. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The inner Viking was was strong with us that day. So uh but we rallied a lot of people and we had a lot of people that followed us. It really resonated and we really founded Paragon on that pillar of we need to care for our people, first and foremost, whether that means spotting when someone's about to burn out, trying to take some things off people's plates, spotting the overachievers who are doing too much. So it's not just, you know, lifting people up that are down, but also protecting those people who are up from falling down.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

And I I actually think this is a lead into something I know you're working on because I think it's really interesting that whole concept that you just talked about about paying attention to your people and taking care of them. And you know, again, we know each other well, we know each other's businesses well. So I wholeheartedly believe that people are the most important part of our businesses, and it it's our job to take care of them and to let that set them up so awesome people can be awesome in an environment that they can thrive. Exactly. Now I know that you've been working on some content, some some um, you know, advice for leaders on how to consider things like mental health, uh, which I think includes things like burnout and other pieces. Do you want to share a little bit about that now?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, sure, absolutely. So I applied to be a vistage speaker. So if people don't know what Vista is, it's a worldwide network of CEOs where we can all come together, and that's how obviously you and I have met, and we're able to bounce ideas off each other and challenge each other in a way that we can't really get from our company because once you're a leader that high up, it's really inappropriate to uh have those conversations within people within your organization, but then it's hard to have who do you talk to then? And get a little lonely at the top. Absolutely. So uh, you know, I developed this presentation that really focuses on three pillars of uh first and foremost, regulating yourself. So my big thing is we can't regulate somebody if we're dysregulated ourselves. So if I'm heightened and I'm, you know, having a tantrum for lack of a better word, there's no way I'm gonna be able to de-escalate a situation. So I teach leaders, hey, what's important about regulating yourself? And we talk about the physiological uh instances that are going inside our body and how do we slow our heart rate down, how do we calm our muscles that are tense or our jaws clenched and things like that, so that first and foremost we can make sure we're in check. So it's it's heightening EQ, it's bringing that up. And then we talk a lot about recognizing different symptoms, and it includes burnout, it includes several mental health diagnoses, not to help people learn how to diagnose because that took years, you know, that took three years of master's level education and then 2,000 clock hours beyond that. So it's it's more about just recognizing that people have something going on within them that you may not know about and being more aware. And how can you lead through by maybe recognizing patterns of behavior so that you can help someone who you may otherwise have let go, but maybe you can retain them if you're able to help them through that. And then the final is kind of like rewiring your culture. How can you instill this in your culture that you are safe here, that you can be open about these things, that we do appreciate the whole person. Because, like you said, it's 2025. We have to take care of people. The robots have not taken all our jobs yet. I don't think they ever will.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yes, I think we're safe from that, even though I many would argue we are, but I I agree with you. Humans, if anything, we're making humans superpowered, and there's stresses that come along with that too. So even more responsibility, right? To take care of our people.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Aaron Powell Yeah, so my goal is just to help leaders become more aware of that because we've been able to navigate things at Paragon that I think a leader with no mental health background or training would have really struggled with, to really understand deeply what is going on within somebody and understand the different nuances and how that plays out in workplace environments.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Aaron Powell Would you be willing to share any of those stories of what you went through there or anything that that comes to mind at the point?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

I'd have to think about that a little bit because I wouldn't want to give anything too much that could be identified.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

I will respect your confidentiality. I appreciate that. Um well then if I take you back to that first pillar, um, and it's something um you know that resonates with me because I'm off I've often thought, you know, I've done a lot of work in the recent years or you know uh over the course of my career too, around emotional intelligence. And I had a profound um uh kind of revelation about that several years ago when I started working with my current coach, Sean Hayashi. I was really looking into other people's emotional intelligence and I thought I was tuned in, but what I was missing was my own. Like I was not paying attention to my own emotions. Yeah, that's true. I was, you know, compartmentalizing, pushing them down, not important, not important, focus on others. And in a way, that you know, led me to some burnout and things that I've I've you know been able to work through. But I think it's a it's it's it's not, you know, when a lot of people talk about emotional intelligence in this piece, it's it's not just about others, it's about yourself. And so I love this first pillar you're talking about. How do we know ourselves? How do we manage that? How do we not be have a tantrum? Completely understand that. I think I've definitely had a few tantrums in my sure if happens to the best of us. Do you have any you know advice, like if someone was listening and you know, just any sort of like a first step or first thing to think about?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah, absolutely. So, like you said, squashing the emotions feels like the right thing to do, but it's actually going to backfire. So, what I always tell people to do is just acknowledge the emotion that you're having, regardless of what it is, label it. I'm frustrated, I'm angry, I'm pissed off, or whatever it is, but then remind yourself, but I'm safe in this moment, or but I need to lead in this moment, or whatever you need to do. But owning that emotion is definitely key because that will even just saying and admitting it to yourself, I'm mad about this situation, and then letting it out in an appropriate setting. Right. So my coach told me to go scream F you in the my backyard, but not to the person I was mad at, right? So um that that helps to get it out in a way that's not going to have an effect where it matters.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Interesting. Do when you um thread that in, so working on us, regulating ourselves, understanding our emotions, not throwing up on other people when we're feeling an emotion. Um and then I think you said your second pillar then is knowing what to look for in other people. Is there any sort of again, first things to think about, advice for people who are listening on how we could do that? Because I find that really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a thing I've been thinking a lot about, is especially even as I developed it and wrote out this presentation, and what I really came back to is just like noticing patterns of behavior. So I find a lot when you're at the top, people will give you what you want to hear, um, and which is great, and that feels good in that moment, but looking deeper down of like, well, what's actually happening here? You're saying this, but I'm seeing this. Help me understand the difference. So really uh honing in on what's actually happening, like what are the patterns of behavior, then what are the what that's gonna tell you a lot more than what someone's actually telling you.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Interesting. And it probably works well for your home life too, right? And families like you learn, you know, uh no, that's probably certainly happening with my husband or or me to him, and and you know, so I think it's probably great things to work on for life in general.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Oh, absolutely. It's so translatable. And a lot of the things I worked on my presentation are things in how I parent my son, and there's a lot of translatable skills, I think. Anything there that you'd be willing to share? Sure. So um one of the big things that my son always says, and I think a lot of parents can resonate with this, is I'm bored. And my my kind of response is, well, that's okay, yeah, but no complaint without commitment to being part of the solution. Like, ah, mom, you know, I know. I'm like, you're bored, so what are you gonna do about it? My job as a parent is not to entertain you. But I'm here, I'm gonna keep you safe, I'm here to help you. However, it's not my job to entertain you at all times. So kind of back to employees. This happened. What okay, great. What's your commitment to being part of the solution? I don't want to hear a complaint just to be venting. Let's let's actually get some traction here. What could we do about this? And then what will you do about it? So that's that's I think a very translatable skill, whether you're a parent, whether you're a leader or some sort of manager, um, to get people in their gears going, because I think sometimes people come to you expecting you to fix the problem, and we've probably all fallen into that at some point. But I think transcending to that next level is saying, I'm not the fixer of all problems. Yep. I'm here to help people find the tools within themselves to be part of their own solution. Well said.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

And right, and you're building upon that first pillar because you can't do that and let someone be in that space if you can't be regulated emotionally and and kind of almost that vanilla conversation, right? Where you're where you're um, you know to be able to be in that space to be effective.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Right, right. Because if, you know, he comes to me and I'm bored and I'm like, wow, and I just explode myself, that's not helping anybody. Or if someone comes to me with a problem, like, oh my God, you know, guess what Karen did today? And I'm like, oh my God, what did she do today? Um that doesn't help either. You know, that leads to the gossip train. So, you know, noticing the triangulation is tempting in our culture to do this. So tempting, right? That's what we're seeing on TV and all that. So tempting. Finish your thought there. Yeah, but just to, you know, uh I think it's a common thing too in business where people triangulate. And what I mean by that is I'm gonna pit someone against somebody else who has nothing to do with what's going on. Right. So let's redirect that and say, oh, you have a problem with Karen? Great. Have you talked to Karen about that yet? What was her response? Oh, I haven't talked to her. Great, I think that's a good first step, you know. And uh, you know, of course, there could be a power dynamic and things like that that we can uncover, but we always try to redirect going back to the the person or the root of the problem.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Excellent. I think that's great advice. Yeah. And then you had your third pillar of this. How does that play? Is there any advice again in that that third pillar piece of what we can learn or things to be thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of end the presentation with this is actually something my son told me that I thought was just so interesting that I I put it in and he's like, Hey mom, did you know that the Eiffel Tower is crumbling? I was like, No, it's not. It's the Eiffel Tower. How could it be crumbling? I'm like, Well, they're fixing it, right? He's like, No, they're not fixing it. Like, what do you mean they're not fixing it? He's like, Well, they're just slapping coats of paint on it. I'm like, Well, that's not gonna work. He's like, You're right, it's not. And I kid you not, I go and look it up. I fact checked him, and he's right, it is crumbling. That's so interesting. And they're just slapping a coat of paint on it. Eventually it will fall if they don't actually make some structural changes. So I kind of challenge the group and say, are you gonna slap a coat of paint on this? Or are you gonna make some structural changes in your company to make it aware that this is a safe place to be you, be yourself, lower that stress so that people can come in and perform well. So that that's kind of a big thing of culture. It's like how it starts at the top. So if you as a leader are not willing to put in that time and those actual structural changes, whatever that might mean for your company, it's gonna look different. It's it's just a slab of paint on on something that's falling apart. So uh that's that's kind of the visual image that I I tend to leave groups with.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Right. Well, we know culture is so important and we have to be intentional about it. There's lots of aspects that go into it, but trying to be a place where people feel safe enough to to speak up and to say things, right? Like it's it's so necessary and and really um can be a competitive advantage, not only being the right thing to do to have a place where people can thrive, right? Yeah, absolutely. Excellent. Well, leading on to your other business, which is uh super cool. We both love technology and we have dorked out a little on VR. I think I'm I'm slacking in my my VR um playland recently. Tell me a little bit about Cat Apollo and how you are taking technology and applying it to behavioral health and and the other aspects that you're working on.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, absolutely. So we created this platform and it's very much like a Netflix or a Hulu or any streaming service, and it's all categorized. And we've made about 200 learning modules that are focused on different areas of behavioral health to help, whether that's helping clients or helping uh patients or employees to have a you know session in VR with a therapist or somebody so that you can learn the skill more deeply. Because what we're finding in the research is when you learn in VR, you're learning four times faster and you're likely to retain it 75% better. That's significant. That's huge. Yeah. So as opposed to just talk therapy, where maybe a kiddo is disengaged or a teenager doesn't really want to go to begin with, but then they're handed, hey, well, this place uses virtual reality. Would you like to try a module? And yeah, it gets them to open up. So it gets them wanting to come to therapy, and that's the goal. It's the goal to augment what you're already doing. And then kind of the second branch that we've more recently dived into is helping businesses make their own custom modules so that their learning and their training can be stickier. Because what we heard was, well, we have these PowerPoints and no one's retaining the information, and it's kind of important they do. Um, I'm like, well, how important? Well, if we don't do this right, people are either gonna fall in our hospital or they're going to get hurt on a machine, or you know, we're gonna lose uh money in the process because now we have to redo something in a in an assembly line or something of that nature. So we're trying to find companies who are caring about the detailed and getting it right the first time so you're not retraining and retraining and retraining because that wastes manpower, woman power, and energy in the actual training, but how can we accelerate that learning so maybe the in-person time is cut down so that we can shorten the learning curve and help people accelerate?

SPEAKER_01 19:43

I think it's great. No, we've done some work with you on this, which has been really awesome. And I've seen some of the modules. What what I find if we go to the to the therapy therapeutic level where you're using it, I think it's really interesting the way you're incorporating it in and then having the backing of you know your education and your team to be able to put together those modules. I think that's really special for sure. And then for those of us in business who are also tapping into right now, we're we're getting that same backing because I feel like you you've got um deep knowledge in how to teach these things, right? Like there's definitely like there, I I know there's a methodology behind it.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Um, but I don't know if there's anything to share on that because I I find that fairly interesting. And it and as someone who's using it, making it way more effective than just trying to put together something on your own.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Right, yeah, absolutely. So we use an ADI model. So it kind of you've seen this in our storyboards that we've presented to you where we really dig deep into okay, well, what's the goal? What's the purpose of this learning module? Yeah. And what are the objectives here? So then we break it down in a storyboard so you can kind of see some of the fun visuals, and you know, we've made it creative. So it's not just, okay, humdrum, we're gonna teach you how to make a Yeti Cup or you know, whatever we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

I loved our cybersecurity. Oh my god. And I got to be the hacker at the end.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

It was just it was really clever. That just blows people's minds, too, that we show that you know you're the hacker and we use some voice modulation in that, and that was really fun. So yeah, we're flipping the script and we're making it fun. So we want to know what are we gonna get out of this, and then we, you know, following up with did it work? Were we successful in the assessment? So the clearest picture I can paint is uh with Penn State Health, we made a fall prevention module with them, and they trained about four, a little over 400 staff members in 60 days using our module, and their fall rating went from way above where it should be all the way way below their benchmark of what they were trying to hit instantly, and it maintained for over three months. Fantastic. It's the first time in their history of recorded history of tracking that. So we know it's working, and we've seen it at scale, and now you know St. Joe's Hospital got to give a shout out to them. Their fall rating is almost zero. That's awesome. So that brings in a great not only marketing for them, but on the back end, there's a lot of Commission and accreditation factors that go into that that helps perpetuate the the the scaling of the hospital and what they can do for their patients.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Wow, that's awesome. Awesome outcome to be able to measure it to that to that level. Um great. I mean, where else do you see VR? You know, what else well, I do want to say I have done some of your soft skills and conflict resolution modules, and I think those are really great too, right? The uh the ability. So we have you know, um, on-the-job training, you're doing different um therapeutic people uh with your with your patients. But then also I think what's really interesting is that conflict resolution, those pieces, that safe space of being able to do it is those soft skills, they're good for everybody, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Absolutely. So yeah, that's a big part of what we're selling into corporate. So we sell three pillars into them big on three, I guess. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

I thought I I can keep it. I can keep track of it in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah, people remember threes. So for a corporate, it's gonna it's the workplace conflict resolution. And I I don't know if you were there that day when we had a vistage presentation on workplace conflict, but it just really resonated that I think it was like 70 or 80 percent of people are never trained in workplace conflict.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Same as our emotional regulations. Uh we're failing ourselves in in our society because we're we don't teach how to manage that and we don't teach how to manage conflict. No, we stick our heads in the sand.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah, just go figure it out and you know it'll just go away. No, it doesn't go away. People stop coming to work or they avoid each other. Projects don't get done. Right. So we made a five-module series um with uh an accompanying workbook page so that after you've done the five modules, you get a HR could issue a certificate to say, okay, Karen's done these modules, she's trained at least, she's got some foundational knowledge. Now there's just a cheat sheet for you to follow. So now I've done the modules, now I can just kind of go through the model of handling workplace. And then we also are really focused on stress reduction. So a lot of our clinical modules can be used in the workplace. Because would you rather someone for five to ten minutes do a meditation in a Zen garden or wherever you want to be transported to the beach or yeah, we've got all kinds of things. Um, you know, and help them re-regulate so that we can come back feeling refreshed and ready to rock and roll. And then we do offer uh team bonding exercises as well in the form of our escape rooms that we've made. So we're we're that's what we're pushing for, uh, the corporate wellness portion of it. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Do you see any other future things that you'll be getting into with Catapala VR? Any other, you know, topics or areas that are on the horizon as you and again, maybe even share a little bit about just creating this business, right? And like um how you've grown it, you've done some amazing things and have quite the, I think the um momentum behind you. It's super exciting.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah, we're really excited. So our our partnership that's going to be announced very soon that we just um made is with the Adeline Rose Foundation. Okay. So I don't know if you're aware of them, but they're a local uh non-for-profit in Berks County, started here, and they help families who have experienced a loss of a child, whether that's through miscarriage or infant death or anybody under the age of 18. So want to give a plug to them that they help with funeral costs, they help with mental health therapy afterwards. And so I'm we're really close with the founders, Adam and Chloe. They're fantastic people. And they came over to our house for dinner one night and I was just like, hey, do you guys have any training needs? You're like, I want to donate a module for you. As you know, they're not, you know, cheap to make. So I was like, I I don't, you know, we're a startup, I don't have a ton that I could give you, but I can give you my time and my expertise. So what do you need? And like, you know what? We are trying to make a module to help first responders understand those soft skills that you were mentioning when they come to a scene and there's a pediatric death. Because it's a big barrier in knowing what to do. Again, there's that gap in training, you know, we know how to make sure the scene is safe and they learn that, but it's what do we do after that? So that's well into um the planning phase and production. So that one's much more extensive. Correct. And we want to make sure we get the language right. So we're working with their team, we're making sure we get the nitty-gritty details correct, and then we're going to help deploy this nationwide so that EMS, police, and firefighters can have a a more robust skill set that's more trauma informed to be able to go in those situations feeling confident and knowing what to do in those in those those just terrible moments for a parent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

That's exciting. That's really great work you're doing there and um certainly will have a huge ripple effect and impact.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, yeah, we're really hoping so. So we're we're excited to partner with them on that.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

And they're gonna be announcing that soon, so I think it's safe to say um that that's we can make sure we link to their to them as well in our in our um uh podcast notes also. Um is there any other innovation out there that you think is gonna be shaping, you know, behavioral health and wellness or b business health and wellness? I do think health and wellness in general has become something that we're all more aware of as leaders in business. Any other trends or things that you were seeing?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Uh, you know, certainly seeing the trend of, hey, is AI appropriate and that sort of thing? And I'm very hesitant to say that's ever going to replace a therapist because I don't think it can ever provide that genuine warmth or nuance that a a person can. So I I think it's quite dangerous to kind of uh dip your toe in. I think there's a lot of ethics that haven't caught up to the use of AI yet. Um so if anything, I'm seeing a lot more stress and anxiety perpetuated, not necessarily because of AI, but just the general, I think, world. I think social media is just is just skyrocketing, and I think that has a big play in it.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

The pace of change, right? They I mean it you could even say that the technology can send us to stress out because we're trying to keep pace and see what's going on. There's so much there's so much rapid change in technology happening, right? And rapid change in general in the world. Right. Yeah, what do you do to calm your anxiety and all of these things? What is what is the crin tips? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Really, you know, I I think it's just finding what works for you. And what works for me is I'm constantly reading a book or, you know, spending time with my family and things like that. So making sure I get enough sleep, which is hard, as you know, my son's not the best sleeper. My little one, we have a one and a half year old too. So uh we had an early uh 4 a.m. wake-up call today or 4 15. I don't know, it's all blur now. But um, you just kind of learn to live through it. But yeah, to de-stress, definitely, you know, finding those things that bring me joy. And for me, it's okay, I don't, I maybe can't do all the things I used to be able to do at this stage, but knowing this isn't forever, you know, this is a stage of my life where it's a little tougher because we've got a little one, and as he grows, we'll be able to layer those things back in. So if you're someone who's going through a transition and maybe you're not able to do all the things you used to be able to do, you know, can you think and frame it as temporary and then slowly layer it in and not try to push it all in at once? Can you just do one thing?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

It's a small incremental sort of sort of upgrade or integration of something that brings you joy or um gives you that opportunity to to unplug, perhaps even too. Are you a big unplugger as well? Or do you yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah, okay. Yeah, absolutely. Um you try to put the phone down, and if I could get rid of the phone, I would. But too much of my life is on it at this point. Now my books are on it too, so I could never uh fully get rid of it. You know, I gotta pick up my Walmart order today, and my app is on there. So it's like it's just so ingrained in our lives, and I I think about that a lot. So one thing I did do is I did buy this phone. It's called a tin can phone. Okay. And what it does, it hooks up to your internet, so it's not a real phone line, it runs off your internet so that my son can make phone calls for people I approve. So I have to program it so he can call his nan and papa, he can call his aunt, he can call Domino's pizza and order pizza because I think a big skill that we're seeing that got skipped in the last generation is knowing how to have conversations. So I was like, let me try this. So it's coming in December, so I'll let you know how it works out. But that sounds great. I'm really excited to bring back that feel of the 90s of someone's calling the home phone, who is it? And now telemarketers can't call it because only people who can call in are people I say that's approved. So we're not getting a lot of space.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

That's a great way of allowing your son to have a skill that you want to develop that will help him when he gets to a point maybe where you're actually allowing him more of the technology, but without having to have that that drag of the extra pressure of of what the technology can do for some young, you know, for young kids. Absolutely. That's a really clever, clever thing. So yeah, you're gonna have to tell me how that.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

I will. Yeah. Yeah. We're big on no smartphones until at least 16 to 18. And that's really the the recommendation right now is not to have a smartphone until much later.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

So interesting. And that's probably a combination, I'm gonna guess, like because of social media and because of all these other pieces, right? And or just looking at that screen.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Is that I think it's more social media. Social media. I think a big piece of it social media, and I think it's the bullying and that expectation of you gotta get back to me, or you know, um, just the free access of what's online. So put yourself back into I'm in sixth grade and I have free access unrestricted on a cell like uh to the web. It's wild if you yeah. It's wild, right? You're gonna look up things that need adult supervision to help you appropriately navigate. Like we would have done it too. We did do it. There was no guidelines back then. Uh so we gotta get back to that what you put online can be permanent. So we have to what you put online can harm somebody for the rest of their lives. So that's a big message that we're talking with our son about, even at eight. Um and it it's it's helping him process at an early age of how does this have an effect?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

That's wonderful. Really wonderful. Well, so many good things you've shared. Yeah. So many interesting topics. I really appreciate it all. It is there anything, you know, if we kind of go towards your leadership um and you know, wrapping back to us both being in our CEO peer group with um with Vistage together, is there any, you know, turning point or challenge or something that has shaped you into the crin you are today? I do believe we're always sort of an ever-evolving version, but is there any, you know, big turning point, big challenge or something that that that you would like to share with us?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah, I think joining Vista's, which was a big turning point, and meeting Joni, who was our coach for you know, just retired, uh really uh helped me uh understand, I think, who I wanted to be, and then being around all of you at least once a month. I think I'm one of the younger people in the group. I'm not the youngest, but one of the younger crowd. Uh so it's great to see all these amazing role models who have been there, have been doing it, how they lead, how they talk, how they hold themselves, that that brings an effect on you. So I I'm a big believer in you are who you surround yourself with. So just being around that environment and hearing the speakers come in once a you know, once a month is is just massive. So a big shift for me was definitely the EQ piece and and regulating myself first and not being so reactive if somebody has an issue, or I've you know, maybe stepped in a pothole and being like it's okay, it's happens to all of us, it happens to all of us. So um, and and not letting guilt paralyze me is a big one for me too, of like, okay, everybody makes mistakes, you know. So we need to figure out how to move on from there. So being in the group, being, you know, held accountable by a coach of knowing, okay, she's gonna check on these things I said I was gonna do. Well, and the group will check on you too. And the group checks on us and we process issues, and it's certainly not for the faint of heart because you do kind of bear it all. And it it's very vulnerable to get up there and say, This is the business I created, give me your feedback. Yeah. That that opens you up, and that I think toughens you up too.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, well, it goes back to that original um beginning of our conversation being able to tell yourself the truth and being able to hear the truth or at least different perspectives and be open to that. That's uh it, you know, you have we have to cultivate ourselves. I think our reptilian brain does not like that, right? It's a skill that we have to uh cultivate.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

That's a good point too, because I think a lot of people are like, well, I want to be wired for happiness. Like, well, we're wired for survival. Yes. Right? It was that is a skill that we have to learn if we want to feel different. So it's it you're exactly right. So our brain is like, oh, survival, fight or flight, or freeze. Uh but we have to learn, like, wait, hey, a lion's not chasing me right now. Or you know, I'm just in a board or something. Death is not imminent. It just is not imminent. It's just a tough conversation. Right. I'm okay. I am safe. Right. So, okay, that kind of irked me, but I'm safe. So calm your nervous system down first and foremost so that you can react in a way that is clear, calm, and in control. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, I think you know, all this stuff is good and in contemplating on whether you're a CEO or you're leading a company or you're leading a group, finding a peer group where you have a chance to be outside of your organization, whether it's friends, right? Or um um I think they've talked in longevity now, right? It's your relationships that that was is a one of several key factors in living a long and qual high quality life. Um, and that I think we get that we're fortunate enough to have that through the Visage Peer Group. I think there's other types of peer groups out there, even for people who are not necessarily at leadership level. And I think we can also kind of take that same reflection and do that in our personal lives. I know I have a group of of women I try to get together with on a regular basis, right? Kind of emulating those people who you've you've cultivated that are they're willing to tell you, you know, the truth and and and we're listening to you. So when you when you need to go in the room and you need to scream, you have people you can you can do that with who love you and will you know be there for you and pick you back up and dust you off and say, Okay, now go get them. Yeah. I'd love that. Yeah. Well, I'd love to wrap up with my final question here of you know, what is lifting you right now? Like what is lifting Kryn today?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

What what is, you know, what's what's the the lift happening in your moment today? Sure. I think you know, the first thing that comes to mind is my uh son just started piano lessons. Oh so um I started piano lessons at the same age, and I remember thinking, wow, I can't wait for my kid to do this someday. And now I'm kind of there and seeing him play the same things that I learned, you know, as a kid, and just seeing him really take to it because he kind of struggles sometimes when it's difficult. And I really wanted him to be able to push through that feeling of uncomfortableness and learn how to deal with frustration. Right. Because he is very smart and things do come naturally to him. So I wanted him to be able to do something that's a little bit harder and challenge himself. So that's bringing me a lot of joy to see him really take to that, but then also work through that in a way that is helpful for him. So and then I guess just seeing my other son just kind of come alive with his personality and how old is he now? He's a year and a half. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow, that went fast. It did. Oh, goodness. Yeah, so he's he's just a little spitfire and just seeing his personality and um somehow or everybody ended up being left-handed in the house except for my wife, so it drives her nuts, and it's just hilarious. Hilarious. So I just love that for us. We're a left-handed household, so Oh, that's so fun. I'm just gonna switch all the scissors one day and just see what happens. So um it it's just great. So, you know, we're really focused on our immediate family and just you know, we don't have any family in the area, and uh so we really have to bond as a unit to be in this together to help our boys be healthy and live, you know, live great lives and you know, help them be able to work through things. So it it's great to see all that kind of coming together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

I mean, you it's you're such a great role model of, you know, you have two businesses, you are doing all these things, but you are making time for your family. You know, I think we on you and I understand like we're the only ones who control our schedule in the end. It's us, right? We have to make the choices. And if we want to be present, um we have to decide how we're gonna spend our time. And sometimes that means putting work aside and making family the priority, right? It's all all a choice. I think you're an amazing role model on how to do that and be able to enjoy those moments of absolutely piano uh with your son and the other pieces, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Right, because I think as women in business too, we have this higher expectation of uh being good business women, but then also being good mothers. You know, and I don't know if if there's that same societal pressure on men, but there certainly is for women. So it's um being able to balance that and trying to include them and involve them as much as possible. And um just you know, the other day my son asked me, Well, is it hard to start a business? I was like, Yeah, it's hard. You know, you don't really have anyone to to kind of help you. There's no one above you. And he was like, Oh, I guess the help I did wasn't good enough because he's made some modules for us. I'm like, oh my gosh, foot and mouth, like of course you're amazing, and thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Everybody's been involved with it.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

But how great is that? He's been involved. He actually made his own, he designed his own dinosaur escape room. It's so neat and way better than what I could have came up with, and we programmed it for him, and it looks fantastic. But you know, just just remembering, I guess, you know, hey, how can we involve you in this? Even if it's you know, he has a half-day school, we'll go get donuts and bring him in for the office. Or, like, buddy, you take care of the business, and then the business takes care of you. It doesn't work the other way around. So we have to take care of our people. So those are just little things that I hope he remembers that's right, you know, that he got to do.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Uh and all the end we we don't have to be superheroes, right? We don't have to do it all. We can find ways to integrate our family into our business lives, we can find ways to have ask for help. Like, you know, I have someone who helps me with my laundry so I don't have to spend my weekends doing my laundry. Right. And it's amazing, it's the best gift ever. And um, you know, there's ways to, you know, find little things that can free up your time. Um, I don't have children, but I have I have a husband and a dog, right? So um, but I shouldn't make fun of my husband right now, but I will because he's the big child. But the thing is, you know, we we too often think we have to get all of those things done or be in those traditional traditional roles. And it's it's okay to ask for help, to find ways to have people help you, um, and just to make if I think by the intention of making your family a priority and let's say our mental health a priority, um, we it w it will come together, right? Exactly. That's exactly right. Awesome. Well, Krent, thanks for sharing your story and all the powerful ways that you lift others. Um, I think through your businesses you really show what compassionate leadership is like. And through Catapolo, you're really proving that innovation and care can go hand in hand. Um, that you're you're able to create breakthroughs for therapy, education, and training, such a cool combination. And really reminding us that mental health, technology, and leadership, they aren't all separate lanes, right? They don't have to be, and they can connect and lift people higher. And you're doing it all with brilliance and heart. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for coming today. Thanks for having me. That's great. Dr. Krin McLean is a wealth of knowledge. Her passion for therapy and helping others will always be in demand, and her extensive work with VR gives her a digital edge. To find out more about Krin's work, see the show notes below. Be sure to subscribe and always lift.