The Most Valuable Resource You're Giving Away | Always Lifting Episode 14

Today's guest is Maura Thomas: attention management expert, TEDx speaker, and author of multiple books on personal productivity. Maura's work has been a genuine gamechanger for Karen personally and this conversation will show you why.

Maura makes the case that time management is the wrong goal. The real question is: where is your attention going?

⏱️ Chapters:
00:00:00 – Introduction to Maura Nevel Thomas
00:01:10 – Shifting from time to attention management
00:02:30 – How smartphones changed our mental presence
00:04:30 – Focus on allocation versus time quantity
00:05:22 – The myth of multitasking and cognitive switching
00:06:53 – Redefining productivity as achieving significant results
00:08:40 – Techniques for reclaiming your attention
00:11:45 – Breaking the dopamine addiction from notifications
00:15:20 – Creating a single-tasking household
00:17:53 – Habit change and environmental design at home
00:20:20 – The link between attention and health
00:21:40 – Impact of technology on sleep and exercise
00:24:54 – Organizational attention management and leadership
00:26:40 – The struggle for intentionality and reflection
00:33:50 – Reducing workplace pings and notification fatigue
00:36:40 – Optimizing 21st-century communication assembly lines
00:38:26 –Future outlook and the "tech lash" movement
00:40:10 – Reclaiming social skills and creative imagination
00:46:40 – Final thoughts

If you've ever left work thinking I was busy all day and got nothing done then this episode is for you.

🔗 Connect with Maura:
📌 Website: https://www.maurathomas.com
📌 Speaking & Training: https://www.maurathomas.com/keynote-speaker/
📌 Books: https://www.maurathomas.com/books/
📌 Free Productivity Assessment: https://www.maurathomas.com/productivity-assessment/

📌 Connect with Karen & Always Lifting:
🌐 https://www.karennorheim.com/
📱 https://www.linkedin.com/in/karennorheim/

Subscribe for more episodes and remember to always lift.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Today's guest is someone whose work has truly changed my life. Maura Neville Thomas has helped me work with more clarity, less stress, and far more intention. Her ideas didn't just help me get more done, they helped me feel calmer, more focused, and more in control of my days. That alone has been a gift. What I love about Maura's work is how practical it is. It doesn't ask you to hustle harder or do more. It helps you focus on what actually matters. And my hope is that today's conversation does the same for you. Maura, I am so grateful you're here. I am so grateful for that introduction. Thank you, Karen. You are so welcome. And I mean it. You have been a game changer for me. And I I love your work and I'm so excited to talk about it today and share it with others. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yay. Well, I'd love to start with um, you know, how how you got into and maybe even a just quick explanation of why attention management, like and how did you get into this space? I think you have a great story around this.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

I my first job right out of college was for a company that sold planners and training. And it was a great planner and one of the best on the market. It was a U uh U um a Danish-based company. And so I had this great career there. I spent about 10 years there, and then I started my business and I was helping people to you know manage their time and be more productive. And it was shortly after the iPhone came out that I realized that this framework of managing time as as a path to improving productivity, which I define as well, which the dictionary defines as achieving more of what's most important, significant results. And so this path of managing time to achieve more of what's important was not helpful as a frame. The words themselves I felt were holding us back because once the internet came about, and especially internet connected smartphones, uh the time uh uh uh changed because you could uh spend time doing something, but you could you could be physically present at something, but not mentally present at something. And that was possible before phones, but it wasn't as as constant as it is since the advent of the internet connected smartphone. It's like people are all it's so much harder for people to maintain their presence with another human, and not only with another human, but to maintain present on any one thing at a time. What I'm finding is that for most people, doing only one thing is boring. And in fact, sometimes doing only two things are boring. How often do you find yourself um l listening to a podcast while you're talking on the phone and doing the dishes or something like that? Yeah, we're all in that space at some time, right? It's like we have to stuff as much, we feel like we have to stuff as much as possible into in into a space. Otherwise, we're not being productive. And so this idea to me of managing time started to feel less and less relevant. And also not having enough time really has never been our problem because if you have a day where you say to yourself, Oh my gosh, I was busy all day and I got nothing done. But then you have a day that you say to yourself, Wow, that was such a good day, I got so much done. In both of those days you had 24 hours. So we have all the time we need to have productive days. It's how we allocate our attention during that time that is the difference. And so I started to really explore these ideas of attention management. And there were books and the attention economy, and you know, with the advent of the internet and smartphones, people were starting to talk about this, but not around personal productivity. And so I started writing about what I was calling attention management, and it it really st resonated with people.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Oh, it's uh yeah. I mean, uh for me it's been profound to have that shift uh from this idea of time to attention. And isn't there science to backing this? That we we don't really we don't multitask, right? We we switch. Isn't there some neuroscience around this as well? That we're we're kind of faking it, thinking that we're getting more done. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

What what we're really doing is splitting our attention because when you can't do two cognitive activities at the same time. Okay. Right. So if somebody is talking to you and you are in fact, this is something that I think a lot of people catch themselves doing. If you're at your desk and the phone rings and you answer the phone, but you're still facing your computer and there's maybe email coming in on your computer. And so you just find yourself reading it by accident when you're on the phone. And you know that moment when you're talking to someone and you're like, Did I, are you there? Did I? And that person's like, you can almost see them in your mind going, Oh, sorry, sorry. And they they turn away from their computer because they have to, because we can't, we can't do two things, two cognitive things at once. So yes, we s we switch what we're doing, and when we switch what we're doing, everything we do takes longer, and we do it poorly. So interesting.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Um for me too. This is I mean, our iPhone is like we're attached to it, our computers. There's just so much technology that is pulling our our attention away as well. Um, if we think about it that way, this this idea too that productivity isn't about doing more. Um, and if it's not about doing more, what is it really about? Um and I think what you're putting out here of, you know, making the impact on the things you actually want to get done, this idea of of not being busy and actually being productive is something we have to kind of fight for, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

And to me, the definition of productive is even bigger than just the tasks on your list, because if you define productivity as achieving significant results, then a significant result, sure, is the thing that's on your to-do list today, but it also could be being present with your family. It could also be being the kind of person that you want to be out in the world. And uh the significance changes with the time horizon. And and so to me, the definition of productivity is really big. It's r really uh what's important to you however you however you define that, and are you uh being are you really conscious of that and and how you're showing up in the world, how you're doing activities, how you are interacting with other people, but also, you know, did you notice that the you know, elderly lady is struggling to cross the street or whatever it is, whatever it is. And we're all s just so mesmerized by our devices now that we're losing who we are because we have this these people that we wanna be and the people that we think we are, but if you're not behaving that way out in the world, then are you really that person that you think you are or that you want to be?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

So interesting. Um, okay. So we're plagued by our technology. Um heading in a direction of not being present, um, which resonates, you know, I'm sure with everyone listening and and myself included. What can we do about it? What are, you know, what what are some techniques or tips you have for how how do we how do we get that attention back?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Part of the problem is that the more distracted we are, the more distracted we get. And also the more comfortable we get being distracted and being not fully present. And so and this is really what's been on my mind. It's it's almost the biggest problem now is almost not that we are so distracted. It it I think now the biggest problem is becoming how comfortable we are being distracted. Wow, yeah. And so I talk a lot about single tasking and controlling your environment and uh controlling your technology so that it's not so easy for you to be distracted. People say things to me like, oh, my phone just buzzes all day and I just ignore it. Except you don't really ignore it. And and even when you do ignore it, you still register the distraction. And then some part of your brain is going, I wonder what that was and who wants it, and I'm not gonna get it right now, but I wanna maybe I should get it, and I wonder who it's right, and so true, yeah. It sends you down this whole rabbit trail that that now you're not present for whatever else you were doing. So why not just make it easy for yourself to really and I think part of the reason that I that I coined attention management in this way is is because it's not just about focus. It's it's about are you fully are you doing all like the br like what headspace are you in? And are you doing all the brain activities that that make you fully um immersed in whatever it is that you're doing, so that you're having the full experience of whatever you use it is, so that you're marshalling all of your, not just your, if say if it's a task, it's not just your knowledge and your wisdom and your skills and your abilities, but it's also your humor and your empathy and your diplomacy and just all the things that you, that we I I hope, I think, work on as grown-ups and you know, kind people and what makes people like us and how to how to relate to other humans so we get all these skills and then we don't express those skills because we give ourselves only fractured attention. And so we're just fracturing our our personality and our skill set and our talents and all the things.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah, it that it's it's such an important thing, I think, right now, to be thinking about that. I think it's a really profound uh thoughts that you have around this. And um, I know from from learning some of your your ideas around this and techniques and and you know, just some of your recommendations of turning off notifications and and on my phone and have been huge. Because we're getting a dopamine kick, is that correct? It's almost like like they're they're we're getting sort of that dopamine kick which is makes us kind of addicted to like wanting to check our text messages and our emails.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Yeah. There is a lot of research about the the kind of chemical brain spikes, but I think it's becoming this whole perfect storm of we get so used to it that it feels comfortable. It feels right. It feels like this is how it's supposed to be. And so when it isn't that way, it feels wrong. When in fact it's so much more right.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

And it isn't that way. Yeah. Uh being in that headspace, I think this idea of, you know, I like to think about it as bringing my energy to what I'm doing or the or getting into that flow state where something you feels, you know, you have those moments where you work on something where you are giving it your full attention. It feels so juicy and so good. Um and it's difficult to get into that. It's a difficult to be in that space and to to you have, like you said, you have to have um I think a practice around this, right? This isn't something that you just, you know, all of a sudden get and then are. Like this requires discipline.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Oh, it w practice for sure. And the more distracted we are, the more distracted we get. But the reverse is also true. The less distracted we are, the less distracted we get.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

And so the more we practice being present, the more and and and and s single tasking for lack of a better term, right? But just being fully in fully present with something and fully immersed in that something. And when you said um bring your energy to it, I think you meant literally your energy, but I almost thought you were talking about like in the medical metaphysical sense, like. Yeah, we're probably both. Maybe both. Yeah. Like your essence, right? Like all of who you are to a thing, so that you feel like um you're just really, especially when you're with another person. Right? If you're just sort of half there, that other person know number one knows that they're you're just half there. But also you're you're just not being you. And you're not, you know, all the reason that the person wants to be with you to begin with, it's just isn't there.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Do you have personal practices of how you stay present for your family? And you know, we'll go into the family aspect because I think we want to live great lives, right? And and have great relationships, and that's probably for many of us the most important part.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah. One of the things that my husband and I try to do, and we don't always succeed, for sure. Um, at least I don't always succeed, for sure. But we have declared at least our intention to have a single-tasking household, a single-tasking relationship, meaning when we're together, especially we're j whatever we're doing, if we decide to do a thing together, then that's the only thing we're doing together. If we're playing a game, we put a phone away. If we're making dinner, the laptops go. My husband likes to work at the kitchen counter. And so his laptop is like always on the kitchen counter.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

We have like, you know, our spaces are blurred with working at home or working differently, you know, trying to make modern life work. And you're right, like technology shows up in the middle of your kitchen counter. It's difficult to not just want to go over and walk and just start using it and get one more thing done. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I just thought of something. Let me just oh, I didn't mean to do that. Let me just take it. And so um or you're sitting on the couch watching TV and all of a sudden one person is laughing and the other one isn't, and it's because they weren't watching, they were on their device. And so I like to like to talk about how shared experience requires shared presence. And so we try, I mean, even sometimes we're walking the dog and it's like, is it gonna rain tomorrow? And it's so funny now how an innocent question that used to be a conversation starter is now almost considered an invitation to take out your phone.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Oh, yeah, it's true. But I mean, I feel like the urge right now, is it gonna rain tomorrow? It's kinda yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

But doesn't it feel like I asked you if it's gonna rain tomorrow? And so what I mean by that is that I want you to take out your phone and tell me if it's gonna rain tomorrow. When that's not that's not what you mean, but that's how it feels. And even I mean, technology has even killed. Remember when you used to sit around at dinner or at a bar with your friends and debate things? And that was the fun. And now there is no debate. Now it is, well, let's find out who's right, and and then conversation's over. Okay, what do you want to talk about now? It just changes the entire way that people relate to each other when we allow phones to be a part of it. And so back to what my husband and I try to do, it's so easy. We're walking the dog, and of course, we both have our phone in the pocket, and so something comes up and it's like, let's find out. I don't know. No. We're here, we're enjoying the dog, we're enjoying the weather, we're like looking around the neighborhood, let's just have a conversation and not do that. And it it continually astounds me how hard it is to do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

To keep phones out of your existence. It is a thing. I mean, we're talking um earlier before coming here and having our chat about having a bowl where you put your cell phones in when you're at home to try to do like we we all need to find these little hacks. I think you have to keep trying until you find something that works some of the time, right? It this is uh no small mental battle that we are playing with our with ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

So And the more that we I mean, this general principles of habit change, the more that we can make it easier to engage in the behaviors that we want to engage in, and the more that we can set up our environment so that it cultivates the behavior we want, then the easier it is to do. And so, like you said, the the baskets or the charger is over there in the closet or however you do it. But I mean, even if you think about before the internet, if you think about everybody's living room, it is organized around the television for most people. Everything faces the television. And if that's what it's for, then that's fine. But a lot of these homes have like the family room that is organized around the TV and then like the sitting area. And I don't know about you, but none of my friends use their sitting area. You don't, that's not what you sit. It's like the furniture over there isn't even comfortable. We don't use that. And so we've taken even our homes in many ways are designed to take the emphasis off the um the communication, the the relationships.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

I know for for my husband and I too, it's you know, we like to sit, we're sitting in front of the TV, but and you can, you know, get really sucked into it and and yeah, you can be present with each other, but it is kind of taking your attention away. And then from what I you know, I've heard you talk about this before, even the even the apps that we're watching our programs on are trying to keep us still watching what's going on, right? Like they're trying to keep us at our attention there too. Like everything is trying to keep us on them, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yes. For all technology, all technology. The success metric is how often do people engage with it and how long do they stay? Yeah. And so all of it is is designed in such a way to keep us engaged. But we still have control over a lot of that. Like the the Netflix or the stream all the streaming services, that um that autoplay feature. We can still they might take it away, but right now we can shut it off in in most cases. But most people don't even know, oh, autoplay. Oh, I didn't realize that's a oh I can shut that off. And that's by design. Yeah. The harder they make it for us to control it, then the more of our attention they get, which means the more profits they make. So interesting.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah. It's feels good to want to take control of that back. And you know, one thing I like to talk about and I talk about a lot in other, you know, people who've been on on here and just in general in life is this idea of CEOing your health and our health and making, you know, um, over the last several years, I've made my health my number one priority. And yeah, that evolve evolved a lot around exercise and eating and all these other pieces. But this, I think, is something that is uh really important for our mental health and our the health of our relationships, which is equally important for longevity and and you know feeling like you live a great life. Um what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

So many thoughts on that. Um as far as the physical health, there is a connection because when we are task switching and trying to cram so much into everything we do, that means that everything we're doing takes longer. And so when everything we do takes longer, then we end up having to feel like we have less time and we have to do more. And so then something's gotta go because there are only so many hours in the day. And for for most people, the first thing to go is exercise, and the second thing to go is sleep. And but when we realize if we simply take control of our technology, take control of our attention so that we can do one thing at a time, then we get so much more done faster and better. And then there's lots more time for exercise and sleep and all the other things. So there's a definite direct line. To our physical health and for sure for our mental health. And this is another part of the sort of insidiousness of the technology is that it it has convinced us that scrolling our devices is relaxing. Right? And it's really not relaxing. It's not.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

It's just a little data put on that. So I have one, I have an aura ring. I've had it for about three years. Um at least it's a passive device that I'm wearing. It's still a device, uh, which that I think comes with its own set of wanting to look at things. But one thing that I found really interesting as I was getting stress data and learning more about where my stress peaks, because there's a a piece in there that tells you when you stress, I didn't realize how much when I was sitting, the difference between sitting and watching, you know, I'll use TV. I'm even watching TV. But if I'm watching TV and I have my phone out and I was scrolling or looking at emails one more time or whatever, it was showing up as stress when I was sitting there relaxing. And if I just put the phone away and watched the show, um, usually with my husband sitting there, I actually did relax and I was able to. So it's very fascinating that I don't know that we, I don't know that we as humans anymore know how to feel when we are when we are really stressed out and heading into that burnout. We only kind of know it when it shows up in like like the burnout, the really extreme. Like, can we feel the subtleties of when we're starting to go down the precarious path where it's going to be detrimental for for our health? Um very interesting uh piece there.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Aaron Ross Powell And if I can re paraphrase, I think, yeah what I think you said. We we don't know what it feels like to really be relaxed. And in fact, it feels so uncomfortable that it doesn't feel relaxing.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

100%. Yes, no, I I 100% uh agree with that. And this idea of, you know, to kind of go into some of the other things you've been talking about. Um, you know, we work with um our you know, a coach, I have an executive coach and works with a lot of our leadership team as well. And we talk about this badge of exhaustion and that we are trying at American Crane, and I am trying in my life to not use this badge of exhaustion as some sort of like thing to be honored. I I don't it is not something to be honored. If I'm if we're doing it right, we can we don't need that badge goes away and we're doing what you're saying, we're single tasking and we're being productive and we're getting the things done, um, and then being able to have the time and space to decide what are the priorities of what we want to do.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Well, and I have to say that you're setting a great example because every time I come in and deliver training at American Crane, and I say the things that I always say that audiences are like, oh my gosh, you're describing me things like, how often do you leave work thinking I was busy all day and I got nothing done? And I tell people, show me on your fingers. And then American Crane, the people are always one finger, two finger, but uh in every other audience it's five fingers, four fingers, ten fingers. People or um, you know, how often do you take work home because you weren't you didn't get enough done during the day? And all of my audiences all over the world are like, oh, it happens all the time. Well, more in America than in other in other countries, yes, for sure. But not in American Korean. American Crane. They're like, no, no, no, we leave work at work.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

It's good to hear trying. Yes. You know, the reason I think, you know, I invest in all this is from all I've learned from you and then what I've personally experienced from this change of mindset is that you really are more productive. Like you actually get more done and you feel better, and you, you know, have time to r reboot, and it's, you know, you actually can achieve those great big beautiful goals, like having a podcast, uh, that you want to actually get done, which, you know, so you know, I guess we have to just keep talking about this to break the paradigm. What what are your thoughts on that? To spread you need to keep spreading the word.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Yeah, it's uh it is a huge challenge because the more we engage in technology and the more omnipresent it becomes, the more comfortable it feels, and the more our uh desire to be intentional actually starts to slip away. Because being intentional is harder and it takes more effort, and then you have to know things and you have to know yourself and you have to have time for to reflect. And even all of that is getting squeezed out. And so we consume so much and we don't spend a lot of time reflecting on what we consume, and so then that's why we hear people just sort of repeating talking points, and it's like, tell me why you think that, and well, everybody knows that, or j right, we just start spewing things without really even stopping to think about it. And a lot of people tell me that it feels like stopping to think is a luxury that I can't afford. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Right? Yeah. That I I think you for speaking the state of the world at the moment. You know, I I think it's really har hard for for many of us. And it was it was for me, and it still can be hard, you know. I think it like you said, it there's a there's a practice around this, uh, uh intention about it. Um it's almost like we can't tolerate peace, meaning like when we're at peace or at rest, and this is when our what our subconscious is doing all the juicy stuff of of connecting the dots and letting us think, and we're just kind of in our own, what I'll call energy space and just feeling, feeling our emotions, which are like this amazing feedback loop. We we're not even allowing ourselves to do it because we can't tolerate, you know, being in that peaceful, um and maybe you have a better word for it, state.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yes. It's hard. It's I mean, for sure. And part of that is because it's hard for people. When when you don't do it a lot, it doesn't it doesn't feel comfortable. And so when it doesn't feel comfortable, you don't want to do it. So then it creates this this negative loop where the less I do it, the l the the less I want to do it. And it Yeah. And and I I hope I don't sound judgmental. This is there there is trillions of dollars being spent making us feel this way. And so it is no wonder that we feel this way. This is not a lack of willpower. This is not, you know, we're just weak humans.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

This is Yes, forgive yourself if you feel like you're we all feel like we're in this space at some point in time and and it yeah, the the uh uh I love that. Give everybody listening needs to take a breath and give yourself some grace.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

And you know, um there is an entire I mean our attention has become the most valuable commodity on the planet. Attention is the most valuable resource on the planet by a lot. It's not even close. And so similar to the industrial revolution when units of labor were monetized, well now we live in the attention economy where units of attention have been monetized. And so the profits of uh attention merchants is based on how much of our attention they can have. So they want it all.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

They want it all. And that's why I think wearable like um glasses haven't quite caught on yet. But I believe that they will never give up on that because that is such a um such an easy path to controlling more of our attention more often.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Just be have more things around like we're we're in the video game with all of the distractions and the glasses and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah, and then all the sort of propaganda around it, oh, isn't this convenient? I mean it's it's it's just the next iteration of sort of the internet. If oh, if you give us if you tell us everything about yourself, that will make your life more convenient. Because you'll get advertising that you actually want. Right? And they feed us all this propaganda that makes us go, oh, that makes sense. Yeah, okay, all right. And so we just start giving up more and more. And but again, it's not because we're weak, it's not because we're stupid, it's because they it is literal psychological warfare. I mean, what's being studied now is not programming, it is cognitive psychology and behavioral analysis and brain hacking to use against us for profit.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Okay. So we got the state of the world. We've got to fight back. Okay. Uh deep breath.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

How do, you know, we're fighting- we you know, if we look at it first, because I like to talk about this from two angles, from both the individual person, what they can do, and maybe just a few steps of where to start, and then maybe um, you know, where to kind of learn more. And then then also to to leaders and what we can we can do um on that side. So if we start first with, okay, you we're we're listening to this. I don't want them in control of my attention. How do I get how do I maintain and keep that that control? Like what what is it what is it that we can do to fight back?

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Many things. So I I would say don't underestimate the importance of changing the words because words have power. And so many people tell me, in fact, I think you've said it too, this shift to thinking to thinking about attention management over time management. Because once you start thinking in terms of attention, then you become more aware of distraction. Oh, interesting. And then once you become more aware of distraction, then you start recognizing when you are distracted. And you can't change what you don't uh what you're not aware of. And so the more aware you are, the more likely you are to change. So changing your language, what you think in your head and what you say to other people is really important because then everybody starts to recognize how distracted they are. And then once in those moments, oh, I should have I should have shut that off. Oh, I should have gone on everywhere. Because we can see it, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:40

We can see it, we can take action, we can we can attempt to move the needle. Exactly. I know as a leader, um, after you know learning, and it's been a while since I heard you the first time. I was trying to think about how far how long ago. Um, but it had such a profound impact on on myself and and then also trying to bring it into my business and to those around me. And I think one of the biggest gifts that I'm now able to give as a leader based on your learnings is, you know, just also start with, you know, it's my attention, but simply when I go to meetings, I do not have my phone up or making noise or whatever. I try to wear a um a plain old watch if I have to somehow be paying attention to time or baking enough time so that I don't have to be looking at that. But I feel like I'm able to give the people who report into me and in the meetings that I am in, I am giving my full attention. And so no computer or um if for some reason there's a presentation to do, no email, no mul no multitecting. So I feel like that has been um something that I've implemented. You know, is there other mindset like shifts that a leader can do to help? You know, that's that's me showing up as a leader to my people, but what else can we do as leaders to to you know enhance the help this whole process along, both for ourselves and for those that we are with or or leading? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

The same advice for individuals goes for organizations, the more we infuse the idea of attention management. But also, this is both for individuals and for organizations, being mindful about the um the impact of distractions. So, for example, on our personal devices, we don't need notifications for email, we don't need the notification that says somebody just liked your post on LinkedIn, we don't need the notification that says it's gonna be cold tomorrow. We don't need all of those. If we want to know what the weather is, it's easy enough to find out what the weather is. And so controlling the notifications on our personal devices, but also so many organizations and so many leaders will roll out their technology without thinking like teams. Everybody's on every channel, on every thread, and all the notifications on every thread and every channel are all turned on. And so anytime anybody posts anything on any channel in Teams, everybody in the company gets a ping. And and then we talk about leaders talk about being responsive. But without any definition around that, if you just say I need you to be responsive, then that tells me that I have to be fast with my responses. And if I have to be fast with my responses, then I have to monitor all of my communication all the time. And so between the notifications, it's super overwhelming. And so, and so thinking about as we as we think about how we use technology inside organizations, how distracting is the technology? And is it supporting our work our ability to go home at the end of the day saying, wow, that was such a good day, I got so much done, or is it just relentlessly distracting us all day long?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

I know one of your your uh books is about um the inbox and managing the inbox. And I think one of the things that really was was again profound for me to learn was this concept of which which way are you going to communicate to someone based on the urgency and this idea that email feels so urgent, but it's really necess not necessarily urgent. I mean, so if we have any tips for for anybody listening on how to manage that. I mean, and I also think the Teams thing is super, super interesting. I didn't even think about notifications on Teams. You know, I was thinking always about email, but you're right, we have so many more pieces of technology that are getting integrated into our workplaces.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

We have I think about uh communication as the assembly line of the 21st century. Okay. And so if you think about the assembly line in the industrial age, how much effort was put into optimizing the assembly line so that we could get as much production as possible. But the way that work gets done in the 21st century is communication. And yet we give no thought. We we consider communication an individual personal thing. But you would never say in the industrial age, everybody just head out onto the factory floor and jump on a machine, figure I'm sure you can it'll work out. Yeah, it might be some problems. But that's how we handle communication. And we and leaders keep introducing organizations keep introducing new ways to communicate, but never offer any guidelines about which so now what is this one for? If we have email, then how how is Teams chat gonna be different than that? And then if we, you know, have this uh, you know, group sales inbox, then how are these notifications from Salesforce? You know, what's the difference and which tool do I use in which situation? We have no most organizations give absolutely zero thought to how communication flows through their organization, and yet it is the biggest source of distraction and inefficiency inside organizations. Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

I feel like it can be the plague of the of you know getting anything done. So it's super, super interesting. Um, we're talking about a lot of things. I think a lot of um, you know, topics that that you and I've heard so much from you. Um, is there anything else you're researching or any other topics around this idea of attention control and what I love, this idea of living an empowered life. Like, what is living an empowered life mean? I want this. What does it mean and and how do we how do we get there?

SPEAKER_02 38:43

The thing that I've been thinking most about lately is I alluded to it before, it's not just that we're so distracted, it's how accepting we are of being distracted and how comfortable uh being how comfortable it feels to engage with our device instead of with other people. And I've had these conversations about how and you never know when a conversation is gonna change your life or change your business or be the biggest opportunity you've ever you've ever had. And and so in those in those instances where we used to, there was nothing else to do except talk to the other person beside you and on the plane or waiting in line or whatever it is. And and and the the I think people agree with me in theory, but what I also hear people talking about is oh, but sometimes I mean it's just so much easier to like I'm so exhausted, all I want to do is I don't want to talk to anyone and I understand it. And the fact that I that we feel that way and that I understand us feeling that way just makes me so sad. Yeah. Because we're just losing the ability to talk to other people and to communicate. I think kids' social skills are really suffering in part because they don't talk to each other. I mean, when you and I were young, if you if you said something mean to someone, you saw the consequences of that on their face or in the way other people reacted. Right. But now kids break up with each other by text message. Yeah. Like there's no consequence. And so you don't realize that when you that that thing you said was really mean. You didn't realize because there was no feedback. You just threw it out there.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

How interesting. Well, and a lot of kids are are say that they're bored, right? And and that's just maybe this idea of they can't they're not comfortable not on a device or being distracted, right? That goes back to that that concept you were talking about.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Using their creativity, using their imagination. And yeah, the this comfort level of just relying on our devices.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

And I think too, like if I were to think of, yeah, you know, when you when someone says um it's sometimes it's easier than having to talk to people, like right, if you think about the plan and you're tired. But sometimes I think you could it's you can still just observe. Like just observe and sit and like think about how you feel and let your mind wander. You don't have to talk to anybody if the if that if you don't want to, but to instead of just like immediately, which again, I I did it while I was sitting here waiting for you to come. I I looked at my email on my phone. Um, you know, it's it's something we really have to put up a battle against. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Assessing how we feel and what we think and and sort of reflecting on our lives and what we've consumed is hard and sometimes it's not pretty. And um therefore, if we can avoid doing it, then most people would avoid doing it. And it's understandable and it's so easy to avoid doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

I like to have this concept of lifting, and um, you know, uh we're we're talking about big things, heavy things. What's lifting you right now? Or what what uh what do you see in the future that is some positivity that there may be progress that we could we can make in this?

SPEAKER_02 42:21

There are pockets, as with many things, there are pockets of backlash against this. I've recently learned about communities of kids who have gone back voluntarily gone to flip phones. Oh wow. And um I think people are um I think you know how group texting seems to be a lot more common. I think even that is a bit of a backlash against social media and algorithms. I just want to talk to the people I want to talk to. So I'm gonna create my own little text thread to talk because I don't want to put this on Instagram. I just want my friends to see it, but Instagram doesn't give me or Facebook or whatever it is doesn't give me as much control over who sees it and and who interacts with it. And so I am seeing, in fact, it's as I understand it, it's been coined the tech lash. Oh, so interesting the tech lash.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Wow. I you know, I I it resonates with me. I, you know, I am someone who loves technology. Um, you know, you may have seen some of the other episodes we've done here, and and I'm always curious about it and and curious, I'm also curious about the future and things that are coming. But I have, I will say, over the last maybe 12 to 24 months, you know, thought about well, what if there was something that I could, a chip I could put in my head? If you would have asked me a couple years ago, be like, absolutely, I want it. It'll help me get more done or whatever. And now I think, no. I whatever yes, I think there's a place for technology. And yes, I do want to use it where it's appropriate, but I also want to be able to put it away and spend more time outdoors and Spend more time unplugged. I love this idea of tech lash. I mean, do you think we'll get to a point where maybe we have like a switch in our home that just like shuts down all like the why like the Wi-Fi, like the Wi-Fi red button or something. It's like, okay, everybody, like all tech is off.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Like For sure. I definitely think that that could be an option. I also think that the more we demand it, the more it will get you know, it's we live in a capitalist society. So the more people want a thing, the more solutions that come about to offer that thing. And so I think there's going to be focus mode on iPhone, I think, is a great example. Everybody was like, I can't shut it off, I can't airplane mode, what if my kids are trying to get me? What if, you know, what if there's emergency, da-da. Well, n the answer to that was do not disturb.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Um with your settings. Yes. Do not disturb for this or for this, but only for this. And so we have more control. And so I'm hopeful that um the ability to control our devices is going to be more prevalent as devices and technology evolves. The problem with that is that um they're not exactly enthusiastic about teaching us how to use it. And letting us know it's there, right? Yeah, if they're making money off, I get it, right? That's that's right. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. But I think that um I think that a lot more people, especially in this age of AI, and how is AI gonna change our jobs and change our lives, and I think that there is a lot more emphasis on the human connection. Um a lot of people are talking about that, and I think that can only be good for um for us as a society because I I really felt like we were entering this world of scroll zombies. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Well, and it's uh it's gotta be showing up in our health and in other area, you know, areas. So I I I love this idea of just awakening up to it, paying attention to it to it, and then using our collective voices to say, hey, we've got a tech last year. We want things that uh that will help us um live great lives and be present in all of these pieces that you have talked about.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

That's exactly right. Engaging your community, whether it's your family, your friends, um, and really talking about, hey, let's just be present and let's just put our phones away and let's just, you know, let's have these rules for when we're together, whatever they are, um helps a lot because doing it by yourself is hard.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

I I talk about you all the time. I talk about your books all the time to anybody who will listen. I really truly believe it has been a game changer for me in my life and in my work. And so, you know, I just want to thank you for what you do and the clarity that you've brought to me and others. Um your ideas don't just help people get more done, you're helping people live and lead richer lives. Um, they're having more meaningful lives, being present, and you're lifting people everywhere by helping them focus on what truly matters. And I so appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

It means truly more than I can express to hear you say that. Thank you very much. Well, thanks for coming today. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Mora's work on attention management is truly eye-opening. If you're interested in learning more about Mora and her written works, check the show notes below. And don't forget to always lift.